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Old 04-28-2010, 02:29 AM   #120
quartertone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConsumeAndBreed View Post
Islam, by it's nature, is a more violent and destructive religion than any others.
That's a mistake; it's not the religion. I recently learned a bit more about Islamic history by translating a book dealing with some medieval Islamic art/culture subjects. There was greater freedom of theological opinion, more democracy, and a very strong interest in modernity and science. Arab societies were, in a number of respects, more advanced than many European ones.

Quote:
what about the clitorectomies, stonings, stone age justice, lack of democracy, disdain for modernity and science, and severe myopia? How can you attribute that to the actions of the west?
Clitorectomies are more widespread in certain very traditional African societies than Middle Eastern ones, and have little to do with Islam per se. Go here: http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/equityappendix.html

But anyway, I don't attribute the origins of those things to the West. What I attribute to the West is the medieval state of many Middle Eastern societies. I realise that if one doesn't know the history that sounds like excuse-making and blame-shifting, but consider this: take a Western society, and imagine that time after time, powerful outside forces had come, caused massive destruction, and supported the most oppressive, backward factions and leaders as a way of preventing growth and progress. I'm not exaggerating, that's been happening for ages in Asia and Africa. Don't take my word for it - it's easy enough to get some background online. You find the way Muslim extremists oppress women and massacre freedom disgusting, right? So, imagine a guy like this, a militant fundamentlist warlord, and now imagine the USA pumping literally millions of dollars, as well as large amounts of drugs for further sale, into this guy and his forces. Do you find that disgusting too? Because that's what was going on for years in Afghanistan from the late 70s on (look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulbuddin_Hekmatyar, he's one of the worst of the worst and was on America's payroll for quite a while). The contribution the USA made to Afghan society and democracy during Jimmy Carter's administration alone sent it halfway to the stone age, with US-funded (so presumably ultimately tax-funded) warlords destroying half the country and most of the progress it had made in terms of modernisation and urbanisation. People say "Muslim societies are so backward, they just haven't progressed towards democracy". The thing is, they've been prevented from doing so again and again. Iran (which isn't actually comparable to the more backward ME states) wouldn't be a theocracy if the joint US-British secret services hadn't removed its first democratically-elected president: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Ir..._d%27%C3%A9tat Whom did they replace him with? The Shah, a nice old-style despot who did the US's bidding while oppressing his own country.

So tell me, what does any of this have to do with Islam?

Quote:
Those things are the fault of Islam. Other religions don't seem to limit human welfare as severely.
Maybe you should listen to an Orthodox (male) Jew's morning prayer routine, where he thanks God for not making him a woman...

I'm not defending militant extremists who wish death upon people who "insult" Islam, by the way, nor do I think they deserve particular courtesy simply because it's their religion. My point is just that the West has played a large part in breeding and maintaining this phenomenon. It's fine as long as the crazy Arabs are killing each other somewhere else, but when they take their anger over here people start complaining. So they should learn a bit more about the background to what they're complaining about.

Last edited by quartertone; 04-28-2010 at 02:33 AM..
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