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Old 08-07-2008, 07:29 PM   #1
stark17
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People who can't read music.

Can sometimes really piss me off. I'm currently playing bass in a musical in my town, and we couldn't find a drummer. We eventually found a guy who was apperently amazing (and was quite cocky) etc etc, then turns out he can't read rhythms and has been nothing but trouble, and quite overrated.

Do you think being able to read standard music notation is important?
Do you dislike 'tab'? (like me).

Discuss.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:41 PM   #2
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If you are going to be playing in musicals, or orchestras or anything that performs live that requires you to read the music as you play it, then yeah... you should. Also, you will get paid more and will get more calls back from groups that you play with if you are able to read music.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:52 PM   #3
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I've grown up with both tab and notation hand in hand; and I am a strong believer that EVERY single person who plays an instrument should know rhythmic dictation inside and out and that not learning it is like playing music blind (blind ears, that is). It never ceases to amaze me when a somewhat "experienced" guitarist tells me they haven't the faintest clue what an eighth note is. For fretted instruments though, in my opinion, learning the actual pitch notation (little black dots) is nonessential to musical success... just don't expect to have any financial success, especially if you're considering being a studio musician. Being able to sight-read is a requirement.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:55 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BZM View Post
I am a strong believer that EVERY single person who plays an instrument should know rhythmic dictation inside and out
Yeah, shit. That takes, what? A half day of studying to learn it? Fuck sakes...
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:57 PM   #5
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Yehh, it annoys me when somebody is apperently amazing at their instrument, but can't read music (for example).


For me the best musicians are the most rounded. I try to play by ear, and read notation and improvise. All area's deserve credit. Just for interest, I'm playing in a musical called Honk! about the ugly duckling. The music is pretty awesome, but every song has about a million sharps or flats and changes key every few bars. Very annoying to play, but very nice to the ears.
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:20 PM   #6
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Its not even that difficult to learn notation. And I also plan on joining the orchestra for violin at my school, orchestras are the shit in my opinion.
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:34 PM   #7
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learning it is essential for me right now.

you can make some damn good money if you know how to sight read and the like.

drummers who can't read notation or know anything about rhythm notation, division, sub division, etc. baffle me sometimes. incredibly hard to communicate and work with sometimes.

"I just play man"

....

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Old 08-07-2008, 10:17 PM   #8
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my buddy is a amazing drummer and can't or refuses to read
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:33 PM   #9
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Shit happens.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:36 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by stark17 View Post
Can sometimes really piss me off. I'm currently playing bass in a musical in my town, and we couldn't find a drummer. We eventually found a guy who was apperently amazing (and was quite cocky) etc etc, then turns out he can't read rhythms and has been nothing but trouble, and quite overrated.

Do you think being able to read standard music notation is important?
Do you dislike 'tab'? (like me).

Discuss.

Being able to read music is important......but as far as music notation pertains to guitar- TAB is perfectly acceptable. In fact, in some ways, TAB is superior to standard notation- especially when looking at "contemporary" guitar music. It's far more difficult to decipher tapping, slides, bends, and three different types of harmonics when looking at sheet music. This is one of the reasons TAB was created in the first place. You have to keep in mind that standard notation wasn't developed with the guitar in mind.
One of my instructors at Berklee has told me that he and some of the other teachers, would like to phase out the traditional "reading" in our proficiencies because 1) The guitarists here are horrible sight readers and show absolutely no signs of improving and 2) Everyone can already sight read tablature- pretty well.

Tablature is the standard reading for guitar- and thus should replace notation. I'm sure many of the guitarists here can sight read tab with a fair amount of accuracy. So why force them to play the SAME THING- but make it ten times more difficult to put together?

The only issue I really can see being a problem is note duration....but in *good* tab- the notes will be spaced in direct correlation to the duration of the note.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:45 PM   #11
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I've been playing guitar for like 14 years, and just recently (in the past couple years) learned about note duration (rhythmic dictation), or whatever you want to call it, from using powertab - haha. Prior to then, I didn't know what an 8th or quarter note was. I just played. Now that I do know it, it seems essential, especially when working with a drummer that understands it. Which hadn't ever happened until working with Darren.

As for reading the music, the notes, don't have a clue. And really I don't see a reason being a death metal guitarist, and long as you know scales. Although the more the know, the better I guess.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:48 PM   #12
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I wanna learn to sight read, gotta get around to it one of these days. But I can at least read note lengths, that's essential no matter what.
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Old 08-07-2008, 11:10 PM   #13
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how can you think reading is essential, but hate tabs? its just another language, imo better suited for guitar/bass..
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Old 08-07-2008, 11:45 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by BZM View Post
I've grown up with both tab and notation hand in hand; and I am a strong believer that EVERY single person who plays an instrument should know rhythmic dictation inside and out and that not learning it is like playing music blind (blind ears, that is). It never ceases to amaze me when a somewhat "experienced" guitarist tells me they haven't the faintest clue what an eighth note is. For fretted instruments though, in my opinion, learning the actual pitch notation (little black dots) is nonessential to musical success... just don't expect to have any financial success, especially if you're considering being a studio musician. Being able to sight-read is a requirement.
this is what i i was basically going to say. If your musical goals are those that you wouldnt need reading music for you dont need to. The very least, they should know rhythmic notations and subdivision of notes, which i think is a must and i think another must is practicing to a metronome AND counting aloud. You can be very good with technique,but there are many other things to look at, countless things.

For the longest time i didnt know rhythm or notes and shit, and when i got to college it fucked me over. I learned rather quickly and 6 months later i improved more than i ever did in the passed three years, because learning rhythm leads to learning to practice in such a variety of ways.
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Old 08-07-2008, 11:48 PM   #15
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Yeah, honestly, tab is no excuse to phase out traditional rhythmic dictation either; just simply have both of them printed. When playing I can sight-read both staffs simultaneously just fine, one with the notes, one with the rhythms. Piano players do it all the time with bass and treble clef, guitar players should have no problems reading the note durations and the fret numbers at the same time.
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Old 08-07-2008, 11:53 PM   #16
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Being able to read music is important......but as far as music notation pertains to guitar- TAB is perfectly acceptable. In fact, in some ways, TAB is superior to standard notation- especially when looking at "contemporary" guitar music. It's far more difficult to decipher tapping, slides, bends, and three different types of harmonics when looking at sheet music. This is one of the reasons TAB was created in the first place. You have to keep in mind that standard notation wasn't developed with the guitar in mind.
One of my instructors at Berklee has told me that he and some of the other teachers, would like to phase out the traditional "reading" in our proficiencies because 1) The guitarists here are horrible sight readers and show absolutely no signs of improving and 2) Everyone can already sight read tablature- pretty well.

Tablature is the standard reading for guitar- and thus should replace notation. I'm sure many of the guitarists here can sight read tab with a fair amount of accuracy. So why force them to play the SAME THING- but make it ten times more difficult to put together?

The only issue I really can see being a problem is note duration....but in *good* tab- the notes will be spaced in direct correlation to the duration of the note.
I like the bit about tablature replacing formally written notation. It may be annoying to translate sheet music into tab since there are multiple ways of playing everything, but when writing shit down and stuff, tabs should work much better. I learned to read music not too long ago, about february, and its taking a while to get down. I can do it, but everytime i look at music it takes a while. I dont like the idea of sight reading to learn a piece. You should memorize it first and as you practice it, sight read it, so that when you perform you rely on your memory mostly so you dont have to concentrate much on the paper. But yea i think tabs are way more precise and better because they tell you exactly where to play on the guitar. In sheet music you have to find the line or space, account for accidentals as every damn note looks the same, and then account for the key signature. In that way reading tab is muuuuuch better. Also, we've dealt with numbers our whole lives and naturally we would number frets on the guitar (Thats what i first did anyway) so why not continue whats natural. If it aint broken, dont fix it.
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:12 AM   #17
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my buddy is a amazing drummer and can't or refuses to read
See, I wouldn't say he is an amazing drummer if he doesn't read.

Physically, he is a good drummer, but mentally he isn't.

Too me being musical is what is inside, not how fast or complicated you play.
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Old 08-08-2008, 10:04 AM   #18
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being able to read music is most essential to certain genres, such as jazz or classical.
unless you have aspirations of being a session musician then you absolutely need to be able to read a chart or you're out of a job.


being a jazz guitarist though - I can read, but to expand on the topic, how about guys that don't know their theory?
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Old 08-08-2008, 03:41 PM   #19
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but to expand on the topic, how about guys that don't know their theory?
I think for death metal or just extreme metal in general, it's nonessential for the most part. At least when it comes to utilizing it that is, knowing it is completely different.

I remember reading and watching interviews where Ihsahn has said many times that the first two Emperor albums were all written by ear. In a recent column in a guitar magazine, he said he didn't even know what harmonizing in diatonic thirds was until later on in his career. When he first started playing, he just picked up an Iron Maidan tab book and that's what helped him with harmonizing. Luc Lemay said he wasn't using theory when he wrote his tracks on "From Wisdom to Hate" (although I bet he did for the intro to "The Quest for Equilibrium"), I think both of those guys are perfect examples that you don't necessarily have to use or know theory when writing for that style of music.

But then you've got guys like Bryssling who do use theory when writing, but he also bends the rules sometimes when doing so, which is great and helps keep things from getting boring/predictable.

For other genres like jazz and classical, I don't think I know of any great artists out there who can just play that shit by ear and not know any theory at all.

I use to hate the idea of learning theory when I first picked up the guitar because I just wanted to play metal. I have the complete opposite opinion now, which I think has a lot to do with discovering and listening to other genres of music besides metal. Shit's cool and a fun challenge that will only make you a better musician.

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Old 08-08-2008, 05:31 PM   #20
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But then you've got guys like Bryssling who do use theory when writing, but he also bends the rules sometimes when doing so, which is great and helps keep things from getting boring/predictable.

lol...there is no "bending the rules" There are no rules- unless writing within a specific genre (no- metal is not specific when it comes to harmony/tonality). If you're writing a chorale or a two-part canon/invention then yes there are some rules you would *have* to follow. In metal there aren't rules- just applications of theory. This guy just understands theory and all that's really good for is helping compose (like you said with Ihsahn being able to harmonize in thirds now). Being able to analyze is almost worthless- it's just a by-product of knowing theory.
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Old 08-08-2008, 05:57 PM   #21
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When you are in a certain key signature or playing certain scales, generally the rule of thumb is to not play any notes outside those given boundaries because then you have deviated from the key signature or scale depending on what it is you are playing.

Bending the rules = choosing to play notes outside those guidelines/rules/call them what you will.
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Old 08-08-2008, 07:34 PM   #22
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You buy into that rule of thumb bullshit? Let's not be quite so universal here...
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:30 PM   #23
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You buy into that rule of thumb bullshit? Let's not be quite so universal here...
Not all the time. But I understand that a key signature is pretty much there to help a composer from using a shit load of accidentals and to make it easier to read for the musician. And I understand certain scales are used to create a certain feeling or vibe, but you don't have to use them in order to achieve that goal and you don't have to just play the notes in a given key sig.

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Old 08-08-2008, 08:31 PM   #24
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When you are in a certain key signature or playing certain scales, generally the rule of thumb is to not play any notes outside those given boundaries because then you have deviated from the key signature or scale depending on what it is you are playing.

Bending the rules = choosing to play notes outside those guidelines/rules/call them what you will.
hahahaha, sure if you're just playing a G major scale- then you "can't" play any notes outside of G A B C D E F#.
But under no circumstances what so ever does that mean that if you have a composition in the key of G that you can use ONLY those seven notes. Bach did that all the time- and he's considered the father of ctpt. It's not "breaking rules". I'm assuming you know very little about counterpoint and have no experience writing canons or inventions or doing any sort of voice leading or even what "tensions" and passing tones are- so I'll try to paint with broad strokes.

You're talking about analysis- which tells you what? "well there's a lot of I IV V's here ..." what does that mean? Nothing, really. If you look at Bach's 1st invention it's in the Key of C and yet by the fourth measure he hits an F#! You also come across a few instances of G# and even C# a few measures later. How is that possible?! Does it mean Bach didn't understand "theory" that well? No. Every note he wrote had a very specific purpose.


Look at 12 tone music or any version of serial music- I would argue that they are FAR MORE strict in terms of 'theory' than any baroque, romantic, post-romantic, etc. form of music. For 12 tone music you have to create rows using all twelve notes and it becomes too complex for purposes of this discussion- although if you heard it, you would say "he's breakin all them rules!". Schonberg understood and could write in a romantic style- so why didn't he? If you applied 12 tone rules to baroque music it wouldn't work- ..and likewise- if you used baroque principals when composing serial music...well that's actually impossible. The point is- if there are any 'rules' then they are genre specific because it is what people have come to expect. You don't do performances of Schonberg and Mozart in the same theatre on the same night.
Metal is a complete wank-fest. The pool is so diluted with people who have no concept of music theory- that whether or not someone "knows the rules" has become irrelevant because to the untrained ear it will basically sound the same. *This is why Schonberg didn't have too many fans in his lifetime.

There was a great line in an X-files episode once that went something to the effect of "Mozart and Salieri. They sound pretty much the same to a layman. But they ain't. You know what I'm saying? It's about... originality. Style. And more than anything else... soul. Because that's what separates the great ones... from the hacks."
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:33 PM   #25
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sure if you're just playing a G major scale- then you "can't" play any notes outside of G A B C D E F#.
and that's all I was getting at.

don't forget the octave
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:05 PM   #26
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and that's all I was getting at.

don't forget the octave
a G-major scale ends on F#. If you add another G- for example in say,oh I don't know, a proficiency....it's wrong.

Seven notes, not eight.
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:15 PM   #27
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might as well tell them the pattern is WWhWWW then.

anyway, this is beyond pointless now.

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Old 08-09-2008, 10:01 AM   #28
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The knowledge of rhythm is necessary. Sight-reading tabs, definitely. Sight-reading music....uh.

I can sight read if I'm given one bar and half an hour. I'll have that shit down. But I don't see why guitarists should use only a musical staff. There are so many different ways to phrase and play things that two people looking at the same sheet will play it two different ways. That's not what I call standard. I agree with BZM saying that they both should be there. Then you'd have the rhythm (and the note for double checking purposes) and the actual fingering.

I play in my college's Rock Ensemble and whenever they give me sheet music, I retype it out in Guitar Pro, get the best fingering tabbed out, and print. Viola!

As for theory, I feel the knowledge is necessary. In application, I don't feel it needs to be used very often. You don't always need to be thinking that you want to switch to Phrygian or play a D#minor9 here or there but sometimes it gives you a platform if you want to do something specific.

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Old 08-09-2008, 11:31 AM   #29
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Willith, I'm gonna have to talk to you about Berklee some time, because I'm really considering going there for guitar/recording.

Anywho, I'm a classically trained pianist. I NEEDED to know how to sightread and read two staves at the same time. I then learned saxophone, where I once again had to know how to read. Then when I learned guitar, my teacher stressed the reading aspect. If you hand me a Bach Invention or some Paganini for guitar, I can breeze through it. If I had to go to a tab, I'd approach it a completely different way. Seeing it laid out in front of me in notation gives me much more understanding of the interactions between the notes. I can visualize it on my guitar in different positions, using different fingerings, etc. If I look at it in tab, maybe I'll change up a few things, but normally I feel confined to that jumble of numbers on my computer screen.

I find it is EASIER to learn rock or metal songs by tab than by any other method. However, other methods are much more rewarding. Learning a song by ear really helps capture the essence of what the artist is trying to convey. I could play Altitudes by Jason Becker by just looking at a tab. But when I studied the song thoroughly to catch minute details like the vibrato, bending from out of key into key, or grace notes when he sweeps, I found I could play the song with much more feeling.
Sure, tab has its benefits and is a great starting place. But without being able to read, you're simply confining yourself as a guitarist. I couldn't imagine trying to play jazz or classical by just looking at numbers. There are far too many intricacies in a well-written piece that can be easily overlooked in tab. At the same time, phrasing many times is easier to replicate through tab. So that's another key advantage.

And as for theory, I think it's absolutely essential. You can play whatever with your ear, and many times that will suffice. Theory just opens your mind to new options that you wouldn't ever think about had it not been for that knowledge. I'd really like to see a person with no knowledge of theory compose a 12-tone piece. Sure you may think it has no place in metal, but I've heard it executed. My teacher, Matt Aub, actually showed me how he used it in one of his Timelord songs. If he didn't set out to write specifically that type of riff using that theory, that part (which I thought was one of the coolest parts in the song) would never have been developed.

If you want to be a great musician, learn as much as you can. Never box yourself into one genre or one way of seeing things.
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Old 08-09-2008, 02:31 PM   #30
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Willith, I'm gonna have to talk to you about Berklee some time, because I'm really considering going there for guitar/recording.
Berklee actually has a pretty impressive Music Production & Engineering program. I have heard some PHENOMENAL things being produced from kids in that major. I personally think the only three majors here worth a shit are: MP&E, Business, and Film-Scoring.

I probably would've done MP&E but I would've been a complete novice when starting and probably left behind.
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