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Old 10-15-2005, 12:33 AM   #1
Nick_injection
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They actually knew alot more then we think. Plus there is enough proof that shows it was a cia hit. They even brag about it on record....read up nigga! Infowars.com
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Old 10-15-2005, 12:27 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by vile_ator
Me too on the hirtory man. Always been into Evolution and the rise of humanity. My Dad recently read a book about politics in Greece during the peak of their civilization and he said it was like reading a book that was written today. People dont change much.

Also I disagree with Nick a bit. Its true that the Greens are the true left and the Libertarians are the true right(right as it gets). But I dont think they are worth voting for. I would never vote Green anyway(I did years ago when I knew nothing about politics), but the Libertarians are also on a cloud. I'd vote for Pat Buchanan if he ran again. He'd run Independant.

Colin
i don't know, the libertarian idea of power of the individual doesn't really fit with right wing rhetoric. isn't libertarianism based around liberal social ideas and conservative fiscal ones? for instance, a libertarian might oppose welfare, but support the right to have an abortion.
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Old 10-15-2005, 09:11 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Nick_injection
They actually knew alot more then we think. Plus there is enough proof that shows it was a cia hit. They even brag about it on record....read up nigga! Infowars.com
Yeah, my line of thinking is that the "official story" requires at least as much of a stretch of the imagination as any "conspiracy theory" out there (if not more - in light of all the lies we've caught the Bush-Cabal on!)
Most Definately - props to infowars & prison planet for providing some fresh air after being bombarded by corporate mainstream media. It's a sad state of affairs when we have to dig for this stuff, though!
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Old 10-15-2005, 11:01 PM   #4
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Guys you can find proof that the earth is flat on the internet. And all the facts to back it up. I will not check out that website or any other rediculous shit like that.

Libertarians basically say "keep the government out of our business".

Colin
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Old 10-15-2005, 11:17 PM   #5
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no more using the phrase "Bush cabal"...your rights are revoked, lol.
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Old 10-16-2005, 06:08 PM   #6
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It is a Cabal.
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Old 10-16-2005, 10:01 PM   #7
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Define Cabal. Maybe it is mabye its not.

Colin
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Old 10-17-2005, 03:02 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by vile_ator
Guys you can find proof that the earth is flat on the internet. And all the facts to back it up. I will not check out that website or any other rediculous shit like that.

Libertarians basically say "keep the government out of our business".

Colin
That analogy is more akin to the neo-con's line of thought not those that question the govt.! Hell, it was the rulers of the time who perpetuated the ideology that the earth was flat - while the minority (the navigators) were the ones who tried to no avail to convince the masses that the earth was indeed round! Just like today it's the Bush Cabal telling everyone to be a good patriot and not question anything - just keep your eyes glued to FOX News and everything will be swell!
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Old 10-17-2005, 03:03 AM   #9
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no more using the phrase "Bush cabal"...your rights are revoked, lol.
LoL!
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Old 10-17-2005, 03:05 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Reincremation
no more using the phrase "Bush cabal"...your rights are revoked, lol.
LoL!
By the way, since we're all on the subject, here's an interesting article regarding 911: http://www.rense.com/general68/jumbo.htm (Jumbo Jets & Gigantic Doubts - Mass Denial) - just like the ruling class of the dark ages who rejected navigator's claims that the earth was round (not flat)!

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Old 10-18-2005, 01:44 AM   #11
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Has anyone heard of the PNAC? Well, this article not only defines what they are, but also sheds some light on why the Bush Junta can be considered as a "Cabal": http://informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm
And again, I fail to see the analogy between those who think that the possibilities of other intelligent life in the universe exists are high (you, Colin, said it yourself that science lends great support to this theory which it indeed does) and Jesus lovers who base the majority of their claims on the bible not on solid science (there are some exceptions where science has agreed with some of the biblical claims). And while the "extraoridinary claims requires extraordinary proof" expression certainly deserves it's merits, what constitutes as "proof" - I mean for a lot of close-minded people out there (I'm not pointing any fingers here - just a generalization) no proof in the world will ever be enough!
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:05 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Tomes of Deceit
I see where you're coming from, and let me start by saying that I am almost as liberal as you in a lot of ways, and almost as critical about the bush adminstration, and I keep the possibility of some vast conspiracy as possible from many different angles. However, and this is not meant as an attack, but I think on a personal level you should try to step back from your own political beliefs and try to consider where you might be closing your mind to the other side. You say that for some people, no proof will ever be enough to convince them of your side of the argument. Well isn't it also likely that no "proof" would ever be enough to convince YOU of the viewpoint of the opposing side? I know that I can be guilty of this myself, and that is one thing I try to work towards...a true open-mindedness as opposed to an open-mindedness that translates to being open only to the views of your particular persuasion.

I'm not saying your views aren't legitimate, but consider whether there is any absolute "proof" of anything and whether you are also guilty, as the people you malign, of choosing which "proof" to believe.
First of all, before I respond to your well written post, let me say that you bring up some very valid points. However, I must say that I think you jumped the gun a tad bit before you pigeonholed me. I think some of your impressions of my "views" are a bit off-based (admittingly, that might be due to my "approach" and style of writing - something that has never been one of my strong points) To illustrate this (and I've stated this in previous posts as well), I've never voted for a democrat - indeed, I believe that they are about as fucked up as the Reps. In addition, as I've stated earlier, I was also quite critical of the Clinton administration as well (though, I do believe Clinton will go down as a much better leader than "W" will, but we can save that for a later time). Essentially, one of my main intents when I engage in any of the political-type conversations - whether it be on the net or in person - is to voice the alternative side (something that has been labeled as conspiracy mumbo-jumbo, which some of it is, but NOT all of it!) Just like people such as myself who don't automatically accept everything that the Bush Junta says as gospel is an automatic "Unpatriotic liberal". Now getting back to my intentions: "voicing the alternative side" may sound ridiculous at first, but in the current age of sellout corporate media (nothing new - I know, but much worse than it probably ever has) literally any news that doesn't jibe with the current administration more often than not gets thrown out the window. Hell, it doesn't take a PhD to know that we're bombarded on a daily basis of what the "official" viewpoint is on everything from 911 to the Iraq War. In order to formulate an objective viewpoint, as you said, it's important to take into account all sides. That's exactly what I'm doing when I raise questions that haven't been answered or bring up certain anomolies that don't gel with the "orthodox" - and lets face it, most of these "unanswered questions" and "anomolies" have been swept under the carpet not only by the current administration, but for all intents and purposes ignored by the media. Finally, to reiterate my original point, this doesn't mean that I buy into any "conspiracy theory" that comes my way nor does it mean that I flat out reject everything that FOX News reports on. Like you, I try to form an objective view by looking at all sides - something very difficult to do if one is to take today's mainstream media as their only resource.

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Old 10-20-2005, 09:13 AM   #13
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I think the lyrics about terrorism are the shit I hate those fucking towel heads. Cant wait to get the album this weekend \m/
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Old 10-20-2005, 06:53 PM   #14
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That's not the idea were promoting. First of all Juan wrote the lyrics and they blaspheme terrorists and third world morons that kill in the name of religion. But they take a very simple 'Kill or be killed" approach. There is no condemnation of their race or anything like that. Its just like, "You are the enemy, you fucked with us, you are blinded by your own ignorance, you will die." Thats about it.

Colin
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Old 10-20-2005, 07:26 PM   #15
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I think the lyrics about terrorism are the shit I hate those fucking towel heads. Cant wait to get the album this weekend \m/
hahaha that was entertaining man.

Oops...maybe you weren't joking. Oh well, for some people finding an "enemy," generalizing it into a group that doesn't look or act like you, and channeling your hate against that group is the only possible thought process...so I won't try to explian to you why that's not a good attitude.
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Old 10-20-2005, 07:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlaughteredOnslaught
First of all, before I respond to your well written post, let me say that you bring up some very valid points. However, I must say that I think you jumped the gun a tad bit before you pigeonholed me. I think some of your impressions of my "views" are a bit off-based (admittingly, that might be due to my "approach" and style of writing - something that has never been one of my strong points) To illustrate this (and I've stated this in previous posts as well), I've never voted for a democrat - indeed, I believe that they are about as fucked up as the Reps. In addition, as I've stated earlier, I was also quite critical of the Clinton administration as well (though, I do believe Clinton will go down as a much better leader than "W" will, but we can save that for a later time). Essentially, one of my main intents when I engage in any of the political-type conversations - whether it be on the net or in person - is to voice the alternative side (something that has been labeled as conspiracy mumbo-jumbo, which some of it is, but NOT all of it!) Just like people such as myself who don't automatically accept everything that the Bush Junta says as gospel is an automatic "Unpatriotic liberal". Now getting back to my intentions: "voicing the alternative side" may sound ridiculous at first, but in the current age of sellout corporate media (nothing new - I know, but much worse than it probably ever has) literally any news that doesn't jibe with the current administration more often than not gets thrown out the window. Hell, it doesn't take a PhD to know that we're bombarded on a daily basis of what the "official" viewpoint is on everything from 911 to the Iraq War. In order to formulate an objective viewpoint, as you said, it's important to take into account all sides. That's exactly what I'm doing when I raise questions that haven't been answered or bring up certain anomolies that don't gel with the "orthodox" - and lets face it, most of these "unanswered questions" and "anomolies" have been swept under the carpet not only by the current administration, but for all intents and purposes ignored by the media. Finally, to reiterate my original point, this doesn't mean that I buy into any "conspiracy theory" that comes my way nor does it mean that I flat out reject everything that FOX News reports on. Like you, I try to form an objective view by looking at all sides - something very difficult to do if one is to take today's mainstream media as their only resource.
I'm not really pigeonholing you, just bringing up some objections to things you said. I'm not trying to judge you one way or the other though, I realize that you can't always get a complete idea of someones views from an internet post. If things I said don't apply, then that's fine. Maybe they apply to someone else who is reading this and not commenting.

I do think it's important to play "devil's advocate" and bring up the opposing viewpoint, even if you don't fully agree with it yourself. All sides need to be considered, especially given how hard it is to know who to trust these days. Everyone has their own spin on things, even if they are doing it unconsciously.



Just something else I wanted to throw out there: surely there will be a lot of controversy surrounding these lyrics since they deal with terrorism and (although I haven't read them) probably say some bad things about the muslim faith. But isn't this kind of a double standard? Death and black metal have been attacking Christianity for years, it's a pretty much accepted aspect of extreme metal. I don't identify myself with any faith anymore, but I was raised Roman-Catholic, and was often offended by what I read in bands lyrics. I felt like bands were attacking me for things that I didn't even do myself, and hating me just for my upbringing. This is no different then bands coming out and saying things against muslims now, except the fact that terrorists who were muslims actually HAVE attacked us. Yet somehow I feel this will be seen as much worse than writing anti-christianity lyrics. In my view, this is an aspect of our P.C. society that I just can't swallow. People get much more pissed when you say something against a minority then when you say the very same thing against a larger group. What does it matter the size of the group, on an individual level you are still offending or attacking one person at a time. I don't see how a muslim's feelings are more important than a christian's feelings, just because there are fewer of them in this country.

This is just one example, another one i have is affirmitive action: say you don't get into a school and a less qualified minority student does. Is it any consolation to you that there are plenty of people who have the same skin color as you at that school? No! In my mind that is a form of racism.

I know this is going wildly off topic, but the point is that I don't think it should matter if bands start singing shit against the muslim faith. The truth of the matter is that the liberal view hates christians and likes muslims. ;)


And don't get the wrong idea...I don't support christianity in any way anymore, and I don't think bands should be censored. I just think we need to be fair about this.
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Old 10-20-2005, 11:18 PM   #17
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Right on man. I told a guy I know that's in the music industry about these lyrics and he said "Great! First it was the Christians, now the Muslims! All religions must die!"

It was funny. And he was saying, metal has attacked the Christians for years now so whats the big deal? Its true. Christians have of course been very violent in the past but these days they arent. So whats wrong with attacking the faith of violent people that want to kill you? Its true they dont all want to kill us, and I have been pointing that out, but there really should be no complaints. But there will be.

Liberalism is insidious. And it has degraded our culture to the point where now to be cautious about outsiders is a thought crime. To be patriotic is deemed over-the-top,(although its not good to blindly support our leaders as we have discussed), and to insult anyone or to offend anyone that could be an 'underdog' is not tollerated.

The whole idea that if we prop up the weak, it will allow them to succeed is a lie. Strong individuals that succeed and that build our society up do not need to be propped up. A society based on strength and standards cannot stoop down lower to the standards of the weaklings. If they are strong enough to get it together and make a contribution, they are of value to society as a whole. If they are weak as individuals, then they will bring down the society if there are too many of them at the top.

Of course this has to be mitigated by some kind of propping up. The elderly, handicapped, etc need to be given some kind of support. But when its gets out of hand, well, it starts a chain reaction, that brings down the house. Affirmative action is like a hole in the fabric. And its blatantly racist.

Our country or society is like a team. An Olympic team. But how to you expect us to win if everybody on the team is lagging behind the other teams? If the standards are lowered every year for the athletes? And when people lose they are allowed to make excuses for why they failed and re enlist for the next tournament?

Colin

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Old 10-23-2005, 09:50 PM   #18
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Yep, Id have to agree. Thats the most probable scenario. But some of the UFO video is compelling. But there has never been any 'real evidence' of it. So we'll just have to assume theye not here untill they actually land and say hello.

Colin
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Old 10-27-2005, 09:15 PM   #19
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No offense taken. But its just necessary to be very clear that what we are against are people of any race that take an extreme idological view based on religion. There are also a lot of very dangerous Islamic Asians and Africans. This extremist philosophy goes beyond racial barriers. And what happens if were not careful with our words is that we get 'pigeonholed' with established racists that never get anywhere politically. So we want to step away from that front and attack this directly.

Colin
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Old 11-04-2005, 03:27 PM   #20
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You guys are pussies if you think Bush is evil, Gavin Rosdale is the gayest
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Old 11-04-2005, 04:50 PM   #21
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Who?
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Old 11-04-2005, 07:16 PM   #22
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the singer for the band bush
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